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	<title>Comments on: Abraham Lincoln’s Dreams, Authentic and Inauthentic</title>
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	<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/</link>
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		<title>By: kaitlyn weber</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-5480</link>
		<dc:creator>kaitlyn weber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alplm.org/blog/?p=461#comment-5480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[he is my favorite president and always will be]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>he is my favorite president and always will be</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Reasonable Conjecture&#8221; in Dramatizing Abraham Lincoln’s Life: James Agee and Tony Kushner - From Out of the Top Hat: A Blog from the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library &#38; Museum</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-3792</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Reasonable Conjecture&#8221; in Dramatizing Abraham Lincoln’s Life: James Agee and Tony Kushner - From Out of the Top Hat: A Blog from the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library &#38; Museum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] dream.  Kushner’s Lincoln tells the (factual) fast-moving-ship dream.  (See my post on “Lincoln’s Dreams, Authentic and Inauthentic,” Jan. 10, 2011, for the content of the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] dream.  Kushner’s Lincoln tells the (factual) fast-moving-ship dream.  (See my post on “Lincoln’s Dreams, Authentic and Inauthentic,” Jan. 10, 2011, for the content of the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jheimy Uguna</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-3661</link>
		<dc:creator>Jheimy Uguna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2012 20:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Interesting]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting</p>
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		<title>By: TwoLegsGood</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-3187</link>
		<dc:creator>TwoLegsGood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 03:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alplm.org/blog/?p=461#comment-3187</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ummm... Dismiss Lamon at your own risk.  I&#039;ve often thought Lincoln&#039;s astonishing discourtesy, even fright, during his incognito ship-ride to Richmond after it fell at the unexpected knock on his stateroom door of Vice President Andrew Johnson&#039;s men (wanting to meet with him that night) had to do with the premonition of his impending death as told by Lamon in the assassination dream.  Lincoln&#039;s attitude toward Johnson in April 1865 has often been noted as harsh, even bordering on hatred; various reports show the dream occurred the night before Lincoln&#039;s boat-ride, the day after Richmond fell. 

Anyone attempting to dismiss Lincoln&#039;s belief in the prophetic nature of dreams is most likely trying to dismiss Lincoln&#039;s Christianity and belief in an all knowing and intimately personal God.  Tough beans for the cynic.  Lincoln&#039;s impromptu remarks on July 9th 1863 after the victories at Vicksburg and Gettysburg on the 3rd and 4th of July caused him to reflect upon the stunning Christian understanding of the populace; that God must be with the Union because of those July 4th victories just as that same God took home the only two Presidents who signed (and authored and promulgated) the Declaration on the fifty year jubilee day of July 4th 1826.   

I always try to imagine how Carl Sandberg felt, constructing his humanist Lincoln over so many volumes, to be confronted with a powerful testimony of Lincoln&#039;s faith turning up a decade after he put down his pen -- with the discovery of Lincoln&#039;s Devotional in the early 1950&#039;s. 

The final problem is to understand how difficult it is to create a faux dream out of thin air; and then to ask oneself &quot;Why would Lamon bother to go to such lying lengths?&quot;  He was Lincoln&#039;s bodyguard, after all.  The remarks to him by Lincoln would be entirely appropriate, especially the discussion afterward.  There is no good answer for that except a 21st century smugness that declares there is no God but especially no God who tenderly cares for humanity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummm&#8230; Dismiss Lamon at your own risk.  I&#8217;ve often thought Lincoln&#8217;s astonishing discourtesy, even fright, during his incognito ship-ride to Richmond after it fell at the unexpected knock on his stateroom door of Vice President Andrew Johnson&#8217;s men (wanting to meet with him that night) had to do with the premonition of his impending death as told by Lamon in the assassination dream.  Lincoln&#8217;s attitude toward Johnson in April 1865 has often been noted as harsh, even bordering on hatred; various reports show the dream occurred the night before Lincoln&#8217;s boat-ride, the day after Richmond fell. </p>
<p>Anyone attempting to dismiss Lincoln&#8217;s belief in the prophetic nature of dreams is most likely trying to dismiss Lincoln&#8217;s Christianity and belief in an all knowing and intimately personal God.  Tough beans for the cynic.  Lincoln&#8217;s impromptu remarks on July 9th 1863 after the victories at Vicksburg and Gettysburg on the 3rd and 4th of July caused him to reflect upon the stunning Christian understanding of the populace; that God must be with the Union because of those July 4th victories just as that same God took home the only two Presidents who signed (and authored and promulgated) the Declaration on the fifty year jubilee day of July 4th 1826.   </p>
<p>I always try to imagine how Carl Sandberg felt, constructing his humanist Lincoln over so many volumes, to be confronted with a powerful testimony of Lincoln&#8217;s faith turning up a decade after he put down his pen &#8212; with the discovery of Lincoln&#8217;s Devotional in the early 1950&#8242;s. </p>
<p>The final problem is to understand how difficult it is to create a faux dream out of thin air; and then to ask oneself &#8220;Why would Lamon bother to go to such lying lengths?&#8221;  He was Lincoln&#8217;s bodyguard, after all.  The remarks to him by Lincoln would be entirely appropriate, especially the discussion afterward.  There is no good answer for that except a 21st century smugness that declares there is no God but especially no God who tenderly cares for humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-1223</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 14:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alplm.org/blog/?p=461#comment-1223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Again, I appreciate your work and the fact that you have all the sources at your disposal. I don&#039;t have the Arnold book in my personal library. Odd that Oates&#039;s version appears on p.433 of his own book. I thought maybe the confusion spurred from that--but Randall came up with p.433 as well in her book that predates Oates by several years? Too wild. Your comment above is excellent and not based as much on conjecture as your previous comment. I haven&#039;t read Fehrenbachers either, but to say there is no evidence of the dream being mentioned outside of Lamon&#039;s original account, even as questionable as Lamon may be, doesn&#039;t seem like we&#039;re getting enough of the facts to judge for ourselves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, I appreciate your work and the fact that you have all the sources at your disposal. I don&#8217;t have the Arnold book in my personal library. Odd that Oates&#8217;s version appears on p.433 of his own book. I thought maybe the confusion spurred from that&#8211;but Randall came up with p.433 as well in her book that predates Oates by several years? Too wild. Your comment above is excellent and not based as much on conjecture as your previous comment. I haven&#8217;t read Fehrenbachers either, but to say there is no evidence of the dream being mentioned outside of Lamon&#8217;s original account, even as questionable as Lamon may be, doesn&#8217;t seem like we&#8217;re getting enough of the facts to judge for ourselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Fox</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-1218</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alplm.org/blog/?p=461#comment-1218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marc:  I appreciate your desire to get to the bottom of the Isaac Newton Arnold question.  You&#039;re showing what makes studying history so irresistible to some of us.  We want to know what happened in the past, and to know how we know it.  

Stephen Oates, in *With Malice Toward None*, does claim the words &quot;His dream was prophetic&quot;-- words he thinks Mary spoke at the Petersen house-- are to be found in Arnold&#039;s biography of Lincoln, on p. 433.  But that quotation is not on p. 433 or any other page of Arnold, as far as I can tell.  (I checked the 1866 and 1884 editions of Arnold&#039;s book.)  

Oates&#039;s actual source for the quotation appears to be Ruth Randall herself, *Mary Lincoln:  Biography of a Marriage* (1953 hardcover edition), p. 383.  She gives her source for &quot;His dream was prophetic&quot; as Ward Hill Lamon&#039;s *Recollections*, p. 120.  That&#039;s the correct page in Lamon&#039;s book, though Randall goes ahead and embellishes his account.  

Oates apparently took the dream quotation from Randall, then accidentally misread her footnotes:  he wrongly attributed the quotation not to Lamon, as she did, but to the source listed in her following footnote:  none other than &quot;Arnold, p. 433.&quot;  Of course Randall was citing &quot;Arnold p. 433&quot; as her source for something else altogether:  Mary Lincoln&#039;s comment at the Petersen house that she wished she could die along with her husband.  

That comment about wanting to die herself is well-attested: it was reported in print by more than one source in April 1865.  The prophetic-dream comment, on the other hand, is poorly attested, since as far as we know it comes only from Ward Hill Lamon, and was published only decades later.  

As the Fehrenbachers make clear in their book *The Recollected Words of Abraham Lincoln*, Lamon&#039;s memories have to be used with extreme caution, and some of them, like the dead-president dream, are especially dubious.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc:  I appreciate your desire to get to the bottom of the Isaac Newton Arnold question.  You&#8217;re showing what makes studying history so irresistible to some of us.  We want to know what happened in the past, and to know how we know it.  </p>
<p>Stephen Oates, in *With Malice Toward None*, does claim the words &#8220;His dream was prophetic&#8221;&#8211; words he thinks Mary spoke at the Petersen house&#8211; are to be found in Arnold&#8217;s biography of Lincoln, on p. 433.  But that quotation is not on p. 433 or any other page of Arnold, as far as I can tell.  (I checked the 1866 and 1884 editions of Arnold&#8217;s book.)  </p>
<p>Oates&#8217;s actual source for the quotation appears to be Ruth Randall herself, *Mary Lincoln:  Biography of a Marriage* (1953 hardcover edition), p. 383.  She gives her source for &#8220;His dream was prophetic&#8221; as Ward Hill Lamon&#8217;s *Recollections*, p. 120.  That&#8217;s the correct page in Lamon&#8217;s book, though Randall goes ahead and embellishes his account.  </p>
<p>Oates apparently took the dream quotation from Randall, then accidentally misread her footnotes:  he wrongly attributed the quotation not to Lamon, as she did, but to the source listed in her following footnote:  none other than &#8220;Arnold, p. 433.&#8221;  Of course Randall was citing &#8220;Arnold p. 433&#8243; as her source for something else altogether:  Mary Lincoln&#8217;s comment at the Petersen house that she wished she could die along with her husband.  </p>
<p>That comment about wanting to die herself is well-attested: it was reported in print by more than one source in April 1865.  The prophetic-dream comment, on the other hand, is poorly attested, since as far as we know it comes only from Ward Hill Lamon, and was published only decades later.  </p>
<p>As the Fehrenbachers make clear in their book *The Recollected Words of Abraham Lincoln*, Lamon&#8217;s memories have to be used with extreme caution, and some of them, like the dead-president dream, are especially dubious.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-1205</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 23:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alplm.org/blog/?p=461#comment-1205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know you&#039;re getting sick of me; I can&#039;t help myself. &quot;His dream was prophetic,&quot; is also quoted by Stephen Oates in With Malice Toward None (p. 433). His source is Isaac N. Arnold&#039;s Life of Lincoln. Arnold I&#039;m sure you know was a friend of Lincoln&#039;s. Yes, he wrote that Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg Address on a train, believed John Hanks telling him that Lincoln said about slavery &quot;I&#039;ll hit it hard,&quot; in New Orleans when it was later discovered that Hanks left the boat in St. Louis (Lincoln in American Memory-Merrill Peterson pp. 87-88), but Arnold&#039;s bio &quot;has value because of Arnold&#039;s intimacy with Lincoln and its contemporaneous material&quot; according to Benjamin Thomas in Portrait in Posterity (p. 93). Where did Arnold get that quote? He certainly didn&#039;t take Lamon&#039;s statements at face value. Thomas has several of Arnold&#039;s harsh criticisms of Lamon&#039;s bio of Lincoln (pp. 60-64). I know lots of folks have been discrediting Lamon--like Doris Kearns Goodwin in Team of Rivals (p. 729). But I&#039;m not buying any of it until there is a convincing way to totally discredit Issac Arnold. It&#039;s not fair in my oipinion to judge Lamon&#039;s veracity on the dream story until we have all the facts on Arnold&#039;s quote of Mary at the Peterson House.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know you&#8217;re getting sick of me; I can&#8217;t help myself. &#8220;His dream was prophetic,&#8221; is also quoted by Stephen Oates in With Malice Toward None (p. 433). His source is Isaac N. Arnold&#8217;s Life of Lincoln. Arnold I&#8217;m sure you know was a friend of Lincoln&#8217;s. Yes, he wrote that Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg Address on a train, believed John Hanks telling him that Lincoln said about slavery &#8220;I&#8217;ll hit it hard,&#8221; in New Orleans when it was later discovered that Hanks left the boat in St. Louis (Lincoln in American Memory-Merrill Peterson pp. 87-88), but Arnold&#8217;s bio &#8220;has value because of Arnold&#8217;s intimacy with Lincoln and its contemporaneous material&#8221; according to Benjamin Thomas in Portrait in Posterity (p. 93). Where did Arnold get that quote? He certainly didn&#8217;t take Lamon&#8217;s statements at face value. Thomas has several of Arnold&#8217;s harsh criticisms of Lamon&#8217;s bio of Lincoln (pp. 60-64). I know lots of folks have been discrediting Lamon&#8211;like Doris Kearns Goodwin in Team of Rivals (p. 729). But I&#8217;m not buying any of it until there is a convincing way to totally discredit Issac Arnold. It&#8217;s not fair in my oipinion to judge Lamon&#8217;s veracity on the dream story until we have all the facts on Arnold&#8217;s quote of Mary at the Peterson House.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-1204</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 21:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alplm.org/blog/?p=461#comment-1204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mary Lincoln:Biography of a Marriage by Ruth Painter Randall (p.344) The paragraph discussing how she had to be led from the room at the Peterson House where her husband lay dying: &quot;Once she remembered Lincoln&#039;s strange dream of people weeping over a dead body in the White House and cried out, &#039;His dream was prophetic.&#039; In her agony she prayed that night that she too might die.&quot; I&#039;ve seen an annotated version of this 1953 book, but sadly I don&#039;t have it and I can&#039;t give you her source. I&#039;m sure you know the author was the wife of J.G. Randall who wrote almost all of four volumes of Lincoln the President--highly respected--I can&#039;t buy at all that she would completely embellish that quote. But thanks anyway for your response.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary Lincoln:Biography of a Marriage by Ruth Painter Randall (p.344) The paragraph discussing how she had to be led from the room at the Peterson House where her husband lay dying: &#8220;Once she remembered Lincoln&#8217;s strange dream of people weeping over a dead body in the White House and cried out, &#8216;His dream was prophetic.&#8217; In her agony she prayed that night that she too might die.&#8221; I&#8217;ve seen an annotated version of this 1953 book, but sadly I don&#8217;t have it and I can&#8217;t give you her source. I&#8217;m sure you know the author was the wife of J.G. Randall who wrote almost all of four volumes of Lincoln the President&#8211;highly respected&#8211;I can&#8217;t buy at all that she would completely embellish that quote. But thanks anyway for your response.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Fox</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 19:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alplm.org/blog/?p=461#comment-1201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comment, Marc.  Assuming that Randall did quote Mary about the dead-president dream, we&#039;d have to see what evidence Randall provided.  Neither of Mary&#039;s recent scholarly biographers (Jean Baker and Catherine Clinton) mentioned any comment by Mary about that dream.  Like some older Abraham Lincoln biographers, Jean Baker did accept Lamon&#039;s dead-president dream at face value.  But Baker doesn&#039;t quote Mary on the subject.  

If Randall did quote Mary, I suspect Randall was embellishing on Lamon, playing out a logical scenario:  if Mary heard Lincoln recount the dream, as Lamon alleged after her death, then Mary, after the assassination, would have considered the dream prophetic; if she considered it prophetic, she might well have said, &quot;his dream was prophetic&quot;; since she might well have said it, there&#039;s no reason not to claim she said it.  

Unfortunately, some biographers still feel free to turn the sentiments a person might logically have felt into an actual statement inside quotation marks.  They don&#039;t see any objection to that kind of fictionalizing, since they don&#039;t see it as creating a falsehood.  They think it just adds drama to a biographical truth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment, Marc.  Assuming that Randall did quote Mary about the dead-president dream, we&#8217;d have to see what evidence Randall provided.  Neither of Mary&#8217;s recent scholarly biographers (Jean Baker and Catherine Clinton) mentioned any comment by Mary about that dream.  Like some older Abraham Lincoln biographers, Jean Baker did accept Lamon&#8217;s dead-president dream at face value.  But Baker doesn&#8217;t quote Mary on the subject.  </p>
<p>If Randall did quote Mary, I suspect Randall was embellishing on Lamon, playing out a logical scenario:  if Mary heard Lincoln recount the dream, as Lamon alleged after her death, then Mary, after the assassination, would have considered the dream prophetic; if she considered it prophetic, she might well have said, &#8220;his dream was prophetic&#8221;; since she might well have said it, there&#8217;s no reason not to claim she said it.  </p>
<p>Unfortunately, some biographers still feel free to turn the sentiments a person might logically have felt into an actual statement inside quotation marks.  They don&#8217;t see any objection to that kind of fictionalizing, since they don&#8217;t see it as creating a falsehood.  They think it just adds drama to a biographical truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.alplm.org/blog/2011/01/lincoln%e2%80%99s-dreams-authentic-and-inauthentic/comment-page-1/#comment-1196</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alplm.org/blog/?p=461#comment-1196</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is it not Ruth Painter Randall that quotes Mary Lincoln soon after the President dies saying: &quot;His dream was prophetic.&quot; Which dream was the widow referring to? If it is the one Lamon supports would that not be another witness to Lincoln&#039;s recalling of the dream?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it not Ruth Painter Randall that quotes Mary Lincoln soon after the President dies saying: &#8220;His dream was prophetic.&#8221; Which dream was the widow referring to? If it is the one Lamon supports would that not be another witness to Lincoln&#8217;s recalling of the dream?</p>
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